Saturday, August 19, 2006

As you know, I've been participating in discussions about creation/evolution. Some of the discussion happened here, but a lot of it is happening over at the Martian Anthropologist. I've been involved in a discussion over there with a woman named Naomi. Naomi hates Christians. She hates anything having to do with Christians and is very quick to point that out. She and I have certainly gotten into it in the past. One reason I think she hates me so much is because I have consistently broken the stereotypes about Christians that she holds. Anyway, I want to post our most recent skirmish because I want to know if I handled it badly.

Warning: I will not censor her post, and she uses some language.

Naomi:

Amanda: Why would you carry a knife to a gunfight?

If I was going to be arguing against evolution, I wouldn’t choose a discredited pseudo-academic like Kent Hovind. He knows just enough to convince clueless fundies of his credentials and “research”; but he isn’t bright enough to talk his way out of a college broom closet! What a hoot that you would be suckered by this charlatan.

My question to you is: why are you such an agent provocateur? I’ve noticed that every time things get calm around here, you bring up evolution. Why is that? You’ve done it three times in the last four weeks. What’s up with you, Amanda? Do you feel the best defense is a good offense? Have you learned misdirection and obfuscation at Karl Rove’s dirty knees? Or was this something you learned at home, growing up in a fundie family?

Are you now going to start complaining that I pick on you? That the rhetoric is too “mean” for you again? I’ve always wondered why you hang out here anyway. You’re just another whimpering apologist like the long-suffering AG (a friend of yours, perhaps? your tag-team partner, maybe?). You’re both masochists with passive-agressive tendencies and a litany of enabling excuses for your faith and your god.

Why the fuck do you bother, Amanda?

I replied:

Naomi, you are a bitter old woman. What has happened to you to send you into this kind of frenzy everytime someone who opposes your belief system speaks up?

Now, if you had actually read what I’ve written you’d know exactly why I’ve brought it up.

The purpose of the entry, in my mind, was to open a dialogue that goes beyond simple bashing and name calling (I’m not saying that’s what you did). Most people don’t understand why or how someone can believe in Creation. I’m laying those ideas down.

Basically, I’m tired of the typical Athiest/Christian banter where each side tells the other they’re wrong. That doesn’t get either side anywhere.

I wrote today:

I’m not a scientist. I don’t have a PhD. Heck, I’ve only done 1 semester towards a MA. Before recently, I’d never even thought about why I believe in Creation other than the Bible says so. Now that I’m studying it, I see a lot of things that make sense (obviously you disagree). But I can’t really get anybody to give me a straight answer about what’s wrong with it. I get a lot of “you’re stupid” or “you need a brain” but that isn’t going to change anything (not that I think my mind can be changed, but at least I’m willing to listen).

And I am willing to listen.

I think what I did was pretty ballsy. You may think it’s stupid. But writing a Creationist post on a Christian blog and then inviting this lot to rip it up? Why on earth would I want to do that unless I was being sincere in my quest? I don’t have the desire to be bashed. No one in their right mind would willingly put themselves through that unless they were trying to learn something. Martian asked me last night if I am honestly seeking the truth or if I think I have it and am trying to defend it. That’s a fair question. As far as God goes, I think that I have the truth and will defend it. As far as the creation/evolution stuff goes, it’s somewhere in between.

You asked why I keep bringing up the topic…there are a few answers to that. I certainly never did it intentionally because “it was calm.” I disagree with that statement anyways…it’s never calm around here when Martian posts something that talks about religion (and it was his post about God hypothetially being a six year old that sparked this). But it has been brought up by me recently because that’s what we’re learning about in my small group. We’re going through Dr. Hovind’s series so it’s been on my mind. So when Martian mentioned something that Dr. Hovind had (in my mind) refuted, I brought it up. And you’ll have to refresh my memory for where I brought it up elsewhere because that one comment is the only one I can think of where I was the instigator. This entire thread came as a result of Martian posting about something I wrote on my own blog, not here.

She replied:

Amanda, you were only half right–I am an old woman. But I’m not bitter. “Bitter” says I have lived a life of constant disappointment. Yet, nothing could be farther from the truth. I am a complex woman, capable of many things, and a genius at one or two. My life has been lived fully and happily, despite a few setbacks and two tragedies.

My world has been filled with knowledge on many subjects. Can you say, that age fourteen (or any age, really) that you decided to learn the Greek alphabet? I can. For no more reason than that I wanted to. I was an early reader, and forever an avid reader. My friend Kathy calls me an “information sponge”. Can you say that? I find joy in learning about all sorts of things, about all kinds of cultures. Can you say that?

I have never tried to narrow my life to just one issue and “fit the policy around that point”. In becoming a Lutheran in 1984, I was almost kicked out of bible study classes because my questions were “too probing”, too “analytical”. But the pastor was too boring, too dogmatic for me. And I hate to be bored. That’s also why I quit the National Organization of Women. I’ve rarely, outside of religious groups, seen such a bunch of joyless women. I’ve also belonged to groups that were dynamic and productive, that had the ability to find humor in uncommon situations, while advancing the mission.

I have found that sometimes chaos can be a good thing. At times like that, it’s a whirlwind blowing the stultifying fog of everyday life out of one’s brain. Some of the most exciting things that have happened to me have been the result of great change. And I expect that I’m not done being changed, being challenged by life, being required to think in large pictures, needing to act in bold ways. Can you say that, Amanda?

I may be an old woman–after all, I’ve never pretended to be young on this blog–but I’ve never been a silly, young woman, so sure of her god concept that she’d go to her death for it, head high with a pride that is condemned in her own book. I know you must be embarassed to find your “scientist” was a fraud; if you aren’t embarassed, you should be. Here’s a piece of wisdom you won’t take: beware of your authorities! The denial system that props you and your like up is fragile. That is why you get so upset when the flaws in your reasoning are pointed out to you. But don’t feel alone–other fundies are experiencing it, too, even as we speak. Not just in this country but all over the world.

Religion is irrelevant; it’s an anachronism, an anomaly, a non-sequitur in our forward progress. More wisdom you won’t accept: you can’t stop time; you can’t roll it back to 1958, 1885, 1492, 1066 or 33ce; you can’t put the genie back in the bottle. But your need for god will prevent you from understanding what wisdom is. It keeps you in pre-adolescent acceptance of the status quo, of trusting in the words of your religious leaders. That works very well for them: without you and the other followers, they would be out of a job. Like buggy-whip makers in the early days of cars… Amanda, they have a vested interest in keeping you hooked on your religious meme.

Yes, I admit it, I pick on you. You seem to want to be martyred for your faith. I can continue to be one of Mel (The Anti-Semite) Gibson and you can continue to be the crucified christ. We can keep this up until one of us leaves. But don’t expect it to be me; after all, it’s a mystery why you even hang out here. You don’t really contribute anything new. It’s always the same programmed line that was taught to you from before you could speak. The same line that was taught to your parents and their parents and so on, back into antiquity.

It just occured to me why you’re here–you’re honing your skills for overcoming resistance to religion when you go out into the world on your recruiting missions. What better place to learn how to turn the conversation, to “baffle them with bullshit”, to smother them with words until they sign up just to get you to shut up. Fucking brilliant! If you survive in the belly of the atheist beast, you can survive anywhere, right?

We’re offering a free, introductory 12-Step recovery program, if you’re interested. “Break the god habit, in 28 Days.” For a change, you can be our guinea pig!

So I said:

It’s increasingly evident that you don’t read what I write before you decide to sound off about it. If you had read it, you would know that your statements like this, “It keeps you in pre-adolescent acceptance of the status quo, of trusting in the words of your religious leaders“ are wrong. I don’t blindly accept what “religious leaders” tell me anymore. I used to. Oh yes ma’am. For years I thought the KJV was “God’s preserved word in the English language” simply because I was taught that way. And if the preacher said it…then it must be right. But I learned better. Preachers, pastors, religious leaders…all are very fallible human beings. I don’t blindly accept anything a human says. Which again, is part of why I have been posting what I posted. It’s why I invited this group to participate in the discussion.

You seem to not be able to fathom that, Naomi. You have this idea of who I am so firmly ingrained in your head that you simply can’t accept any other alternative. Well I’m not who you think I am. I’ve not quoted Dr. Hovind or anyone else as gospel truth. I outlined what he taught in his video. I commented that I believe it to be true. I’m also fully aware that the people here do not believe it to be true. That’s where the discussion part comes in…but you seem to not know how to discuss differences of opinion.

You’ve asked twice now why I even come around here. There are a couple of reasons:

1) I respect the hell out of Martian.
2) I don’t want to be in a “Christian bubble” where the only people I interact with share my beliefs.
3) I am always challenged here. My beliefs are always challenged. Participating here has helped me grow. I’ve started to question some things and other beliefs have grown more solid.
4) I’m tougher than I look, and stubborn. I’m not going anywhere just because you pick on me.

So, am I wrong? I feel as if I'm goading her in some way, and that's not my intention at all.

Tags: Christianity, Evolution, Creation Science

Labels: Personal

Posted by Amanda at 8/19/2006 09:43:00 AM

9 Comments

 CyberCelt posted at 8/19/2006 10:38:00 AM  
Just wanted to let you know that you need to post the code if you want to rent your blog.

 Cheryl of the Wilds of C posted at 8/19/2006 03:07:00 PM  
Would you consider asking a different question? Is God evident in your response? I do see some evidence of God in your response but I also see you calling her a 'bitter old woman'.

Does she know you love her? Is there evidence of that? Do you love her? Do you pray for her? There are times when being right in your information needs to come second to being right in showing love.

Perhaps an apology for the 'bitter old woman' comment would gain you further ground and credibility with her than any amount of information? She may rub it in your face but she won't forget it and you will have a planted a seed that is in opposition to her stereotype of us God Addicts(I would consider that a compliment).

I like that you acknowledge the fallibility of religious leaders. It's real. I'm proud of you!

 Anonymous posted at 8/19/2006 06:49:00 PM  
It's great that you are looking to learn and grow. Just a word of caution though, Amanda. Be careful who you choose to enter into debate with about your beliefs because, the enemy questions the Word of God to try and get you to doubt the Word of God. Yet the Word of God is infallible.

You rightly state that man is fallible, that's why your Father sent the Holy Spirit to teach you. Have you received Him yet? If so, ask Him to teach you! He will not lead you to doubt; He will lead you to the Father!

By the way, if we could prove creation, the existence of God or the infallibility of His Word, why would we need faith? Remember ...without faith it is impossible to please Him... that's why we can't prove everthing!

God bless you,

Leigh

 ontheedgeofmyseat posted at 8/20/2006 11:25:00 PM  
Cheryl and Leigh are right. Before I read their comments, I was just going to post "You go, girl!" Everything you said was articulated well and was absolute truth. But they're right - truth without love is nothing. Prayin' for ya.

 Abe posted at 8/21/2006 05:42:00 AM  
Hi Amanda .. I've never posted on a blog before but I couldnt contain the anger that Naomi's comments instilled in me.

The fact that I disagree with your religious belief has no bearing whatsoever on my opinion of you as a thinker and my respect for your steadfast faith.
Naomi - I hope you read this - it is abundantly clear that you are afraid of debate!
"I’ve noticed that every time things get calm around here, you bring up evolution. Why is that?"
Amanda IS walking into a s*&t-storm .. but she does so with her head held high because she has faith that the core of her beliefs will stand the test. As anyone should! If they get beaten down then she can regroup and live to fight gain (to continue your analogy of violence - which is unnessicarily alarmist) and THAT is the corner-stone of intellectual persuit. This is not a pissing contest:
"Can you say, that age fourteen (or any age, really) that you decided to learn the Greek alphabet? I can."

You need to re-read your post Naomi and you need to congratulate Amanda on getting out there and trying to argue reasonably while you bitch and moan.

- Abe

 Abe posted at 8/21/2006 05:51:00 AM  
Sorry.. one more thing.. be careful of people like Leigh.
I find the term enemy offensive! I'm not your enemy because I use a differnent belief system to structure my understanding of the world and guide my actions. I would welcome you or any other human being into my home unless they posed harm to me or those I care about.
Also be very careful of people who believe that the bible is the literal word of God rather than a collection of moral guidelines - these people are (often) extremists who also believe that homosexuals are evil and that females are the servants of males.

- Abe

 Maureen posted at 8/22/2006 12:48:00 AM  
Abe, first, thank you for being civil and defending Amanda's right to state her beliefs. She certainly has afforded them space to air theirs.

Now, as a Christian, I don't consider you an enemy because you have different beliefs. I can't speak for Leigh, but often the term "enemy" is not meant to convey that you, as a person, are out to harm anyone, in this case Amanda. As Christians, we recognize that a real evil exists, one which wars against God and seeks to distance us from him. So, even though Leigh can speak for her/himself, I will go out on a limb and say I believe it was meant to warn Amanda about the presence of the "enemy" in an arena where the objective is not to debate but shake someone's faith. I know that may sound like black magic to you, but it is very real to many Christians. I may also disagree with another Christian about non-essential beliefs, but in the case of cautioning Amanda to be careful with whom she debates, I agree with Leigh.

If a forum is made up of civil, open-minded people, such as you and Amanda, the caution is not so necessary. But on a blog where the remarks are less of a scientific and spiritual debate and more of an assault on intelligence, character, and intentions, then alarms may be appropriate. The scatter-gun approach to debate is, unfortunately, inherent in internet forums attempting serious discussion; some bloggers handle it with more aplomb than others. Amanda is very courageous for visiting them, but I agree that she should approach with caution. What have they got to lose by trouncing on her beliefs and attacking her person, attempting not to engage her in true dialogue but to beat down her confidence? Absolutely nothing.

I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, i.e., I don't think he took pen to paper or dictated to his secretary, and I disagree that it is a collection of moral guidelines. To say that is to make it no more significant than the Little Red Book of Mao. Most Christians who believe that the Bible is the word of God are not extremists who believe homosexuals are "evil" (even if they believe homosexuality itself is evil) nor do they believe that "females are the servants of males". Even your qualifier -- "often" -- is still a bit too strong for me.

I am not offended, but please let me know if I misunderstood your comment.

M.

 Amanda posted at 8/22/2006 09:30:00 AM  
Abe -

I don't think Leigh was referring to athiests as "the enemy." She was referring to Ephesians 6:12, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

 The Blunt Prophet posted at 8/23/2006 05:40:00 AM  
Seemed she skidded around alot of subjects.
But that is what comes of atheists. I read an article not long ago that atheists are th ebiggest propblem the
USA has seen in years. Due to a lack of believing in anything they are ruining a lot more than they think. Was an interesting read.
If I can find it I will link it back here.

Keep your head up as people like this can only be helped by God Himself. Let go and have Faith that one day this lady will see the real truth, if she doesn't, we all know she will be in an eternity away from God.

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