Wednesday, October 18, 2006

I am told that Christians do not love each other. I am very sorry if that be true, but I rather doubt it, for I suspect that those who do not love each other are not Christians.

Charles Spurgeon

I’ve spent a lot of time in recent months becoming more and more aware of how the world views those who use the label “Christian” to describe our lives. At first I just dismissed those negative views as some anti-Christian bias, but I’ve recently become acquainted with a group of people who harbor some very strong and very negative feelings and opinions towards anything having to do with Christianity. When I took a step back to ask myself how anyone could possibly feel that way, I didn’t like the answers I found.

It felt like a slap in the face when I realized that all of the spiritual growth I’d experienced in the last several months had come with no help whatsoever from the Christian world. God has brought me to some new places by opening my eyes to those outside of the Christian bubble I’ve always lived in.

I noticed pretty quickly when I became a frequent commenter on an atheist blog that it seemed as though the most hateful and condescending comments often came from those proclaiming the name of Christ. Sadly, the problem is not confined solely to the internet. The only “Christians” getting any media exposure these days always seem to be the extreme fundamentalists who are busy proclaiming “God hates fags” or promoting similar hate-speech. If it’s not that, they’re busy condemning our nation as wicked and predicting God’s wrath raining down upon us in the form of a natural disaster. The biggest churches in America are now promoting the “prosperity gospel” where followers are promised financial prosperity through faith, thus turning evangelizing into a form of bribery.

Christians: it’s time to get back to the basics! Is this the face of Christianity that you want the world to accept? Is this what it truly means to be a follower of Christ?

We have become complacent in our faith.

We have forgotten what it means to be like Jesus.

We watch daily as these “Christians” run the name of Christ through the mud, yet we are content to sit idly by and do nothing about it.

Would Jesus ever condemn a man or woman by proclaiming “God hates fags”? Absolutely not! Would Jesus ever sit on a pew in a church comfortably listening to doctrines that promote the “prosperity gospel”? Never!

We must ask ourselves why we let those who call themselves “Christian” do those same things. Why is no one standing up and proclaiming “Hey! That’s not right! That’s not what it means to be a Christian!”?

I once heard a great story about a bag of Oreo cookies that nicely parallels our current situation. A husband and wife bought a box of snack-sized bags of Oreo cookies. When they arrived at home they decided to open up a bag for a snack. The bag looked like all of the other bags, but when they opened it there were no cookies inside! The bag contained nothing but air, so they threw it away and opened another one. Again, though the bag looked normal from the outside, they found no cookies inside the bag. The husband turned to his wife and asked “How many bags of cookies will you go through before you give up and assume they’re all empty?”

How many times does a nonbeliever have to get burned by someone claiming the mantle of Christ before they give up on Christianity altogether?

How long will it take before Christians stand up and show the world what it really means to be like Christ?

Many people, after a brief look, come to the conclusion that Christians have become the most judgmental and hypocritical group of people on earth. Many Christians, it seems, go to church on Sunday and spend the rest of the week living however they choose.

Is it any wonder that people don’t want to associate themselves with anything “Christian”?

The Bible says, “But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was” (James 1:22-24).

That paints a perfect picture of how most people view the Christian: hypocritical! Dare I say it: Christians are the most hypocritical group of people living today.

When are we going to start doing everything we say we believe in?

When are we going to stand up and let the world know that Christianity isn’t a label, but a lifestyle?

When are we going to show the world who Jesus really is?

Blogs that link here: Conservative Cat, Blue Star Chronicles, Random Yak, TMH's Bacon Bits, Linkfest Haven, Dumb Ox News, Planck's Constant, Third World County

Posted by Amanda at 10/18/2006 10:18:00 AM

33 Comments

 ontheedgeofmyseat posted at 10/18/2006 10:50:00 AM  
Darnit. I hate when I get convicted. I am a hearer of the Word, but not a doer. I don't go, minister to my neighbors, because I don't feel like getting off the couch. I don't make a difference in my community because the only time I have to do so is the time I watch my TV shows. My life is great, just the way it is.

But others' lives could be great, too, and I'm not out there telling them about it. For fellow Christians who read this, please pray that God would take my un-motivated heart and put a fire in it. I need to step up.

Thanks for this post, Amanda.

 bernie posted at 10/18/2006 11:34:00 AM  
I linked to you from Border Babies Booming

 Annette posted at 10/18/2006 12:06:00 PM  
Thank you for this post. It's good to be reminded, that even as a pastor's wife, there is more that I can do, more that I can reach out to, a better example of Christianity that I can always be.
thanks. :)

 David posted at 10/18/2006 12:48:00 PM  
Indeed.

Well said.

(extremely small off-topic quibble: I appreciate your enlargement of my borders, but I'm just "third world county"--not "countRy". :-))

 Amanda posted at 10/18/2006 12:58:00 PM  
Whoops! I fixed it, David. Thanks for pointing that out. Sometimes my fingers get ahead of my brain and I type similar words to what I meant to type.

 The Pooflinger posted at 10/18/2006 05:22:00 PM  
Glad to see you posted this and submitted it to at least one carnival. Perhaps you would find less hostility toward Christianity from the godless like me (not that I'm hostile to you or anything) if more Christians saw things the way you do.

On a side note, I think I'm going to pass around a couple copies if you don't mind...

 Amanda posted at 10/18/2006 05:33:00 PM  
Of course I don't mind...as long as you don't fling any poo at it (though I wouldn't expect you to since you were my editor. ::big grin::

 The Pooflinger posted at 10/18/2006 07:58:00 PM  
No way would I fling poo at something I agree with. I feel proud to have been your editor, and you're welcome to run anything by me that you feel like in the future.

On a side note, I see you did a little re-editing. That's a good thing... when it's your product going out ultimately it has to be you who's happy with it.

 Bro. Bartleby posted at 10/19/2006 01:16:00 PM  
Sister Amanda,

Paradox to follow: Today I was pointed to your blog by an atheist. Well, I thank him and will visit often.

Shalom,
Bro. Bartleby

 Amanda posted at 10/19/2006 01:22:00 PM  
Bro. Bartleby--I'm not surprised. I'm getting a much better response from the atheists that I know who have read this than from the Christians. In fact, my editor for the piece is an atheist (well, not exactly, but it's easier to just say that).

 xiangtao posted at 10/19/2006 01:42:00 PM  
ontheedgeofmyseat: don't bother getting off your couch to go out and preach to those of us who don't believe. Most of us have great lives without your Christ. This is the other thing Christians do that alienates non-believers: assuming that without God our lives are empty.

Amanda: I completely agree with you and I wish that more Christians were like you.

 IAMB posted at 10/19/2006 03:17:00 PM  
Bro. Bartleby:

Perhaps not so strange as you might think, considering that it's a fairly high probability that her "editor" and the one who referred you are, in fact, the same person.

 bigdumbchimp posted at 10/20/2006 06:00:00 AM  
Wonderful piece. I think you hit on some good points that those in the religious population as well as those of us in the non-religious population should take heed.

 Pablo posted at 10/20/2006 06:52:00 AM  
Oh, man! Now that I read this post, I can't generalize about christians anymore!!!
Hopefully in the future christians like you will take the leading voice, so we all can live in peace. Cheers!!!

 agg_115 posted at 10/20/2006 09:26:00 AM  
xiangtao, when did I talk about preaching? I was talking about ministering to my neighbor who is struggling with her teenage daughter by being there for her, etc. I firmly believe that you can't win people to Christ by berating them about it. They have to see your love - that you're different from the negative stereotypes that are out there. Hope that puts your mind at ease.

 Shygetz posted at 10/20/2006 11:13:00 AM  
Well said, and well done. While people like you describe didn't drive me away from Christianity, they are what convinced me to leave the church (where I had remained after my de-conversion for social reasons).

Here's hoping people take your message to heart.

 Cheryl posted at 10/20/2006 12:01:00 PM  
Given the fact the what Charles Spurgeon said is scriptural, I think he hit the nail on the head. There are many who claim the name of Christ and don't know Him. There are goats mixed in with the sheep and wolves dressed like sheep.

The tricky part for the sheep is responding to the goats in a manor that reflects their sheep status. Yes, we are to challenge/ test the spirits or messages from others but we are also to love. Responding to the hypocrite in like manor will not help. We must respond in Truth and in Love...with grace.

To those of you who don't know Jesus; don't let the hypocrisy of another man keep you from knowing Him. That means the hypocrite wins.

May I also say, doing comes best from being.

 Maureen posted at 10/20/2006 09:16:00 PM  
Cheryl, you are as wise as you are kind, and the Holy Spirit definitely resides in you, sister.

Where to begin...One commenter tells another to not bother preaching about "your Christ" because their lives are great without, and wishes more Christians were like you (Amanda).

You are also not to "assume" their lives are empty without God.

Another says that if Christians like you were to take the leading voice, "we can all live in peace."

Is that all it would take?

Well...that and never mentioning Christ again.

 Amanda posted at 10/21/2006 01:21:00 AM  
Cheryl and Maureen:

Both of you have managed to confuse me with your comments. I can't tell if you agree or disagree with what I've stated, because neither of you directly stated your opinion on it. I'm inclined to think that you disagree with what I've stated here...but Maureen...it seems you're more concerned with the reaction that I've gotten from those who are obviously not Christian.

The funny thing is...my intended audience was Christians. I was speaking to myself and to others who claim the name of Christ. My fear is that those who are Christian and read it will dismiss it because I must be talking about "those other Christians."

What a paradox!

 Maureen posted at 10/21/2006 03:42:00 AM  
Amanda, I know that your intended audience is Christian. Further, since it is a "call", I assume that your intent is to galvanize Christians to confront the false Christians in their bad, if not evil, actions.

However, your atheist or godless (their word) readers' responses go to the point of your essay. Going back to one of your commenters on this post (xiangtao), it was made clear that they would be happy if more Christians were like you (ready to scold and denounce Christians of whom they disapprove) but rushed to tell ontheedgeofmyseat not to bother THEM. xiangtao may not be in your intended audience for the essay, but he/she will be in the audience that you hope observes the changes your essay solicits.

So, while I am not more concerned about your commenters, I am concerned that you aren't.

While I do not necessarily "disagree" with anything in your post, I am disappointed in the delivery and some of the blanket statements expressed (e.g., your declaration that Christians are the most hypocritical group living today).

If you would like to continue the discussion, we can. I prefer to do it offline, but whatever is your wish.

That said, I wish it all the best in the (carnival?). If only other demographic groups questioned themselves as much as ours.

 yursil posted at 10/21/2006 08:16:00 PM  
Peace to you,

Many of the illnesses and sicknesses of the heart you mentioned have affected Muslims as well. Unfortunately, so little is understood about our traditional faith that these hypocritical actions of evil taint our religion.

Peace to you and peace to all Christians and Jesus (Alayhiwassalam) who brought peace and mercy and a kind religion.

 Cheryl posted at 10/22/2006 12:10:00 AM  
Amanda, you are someone I have grown to love and I respect your writing and your ideas. You have a keen mind and I gain insight from your perspective and how you articulate it.

That being said, I agree with some of what you said and I struggle with some of it as well.

I can see your point but there are so many levels to this discussion.

Here is what I believe to be the bottom line (in this order):

Love + Truth + Grace = The Right Response

Does your post/response to the 'Christian' reflect this equation?

Please do email if my response doesn't make sense. I would love to continue this discussion if you would like something a little more specific.

Love to you my dear sister,
Cheryl

 Jim Jordan posted at 10/23/2006 02:42:00 PM  
Hi Amanda. I came upon this late but I thought I'd answer your call. First, Spurgeon is quoting a biblical truth that is at the core of the Bible. Love is defined in 1 John 4:7 - let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

Note that the love that comes from God is agape, it's not corrupted in our world by materialism, as is eros [erotic love] and phylia [love of mutual friendship - scratch my back, I'll scratch yours love].

The elephant in the room of many churches is that it's really a life-altering experience to be a Christian...an experience most of the congregation probably hasn't had.

What God is calling us to do is to seek out and speak about an authentic faith (as Spurgeon is doing). I think that is why God is using the left-wing Christian-bashing media to exploit the Rev. Phelpses in our midst and embarrass us into speaking up for His love.

Spurgeon is quoting Scripture and He is saying that the Rev. Phelpses and their ilk are NOT Christians according to the Bible, and he is correct.

That said, you contradict yourself here - Dare I say it: Christians are the most hypocritical group of people living today. What Christians are you talking about? Cheryl? Maureen? Me? No, the Christians you are calling hypocritical [" play actors" from the Greek]are people who you stated in your first paragraph are not Christians at all!

Last, I do accept your call to be an exemplar of God's love. It's not an easy call, though, it's not something you sign up for, it's something you live for. If Christians love one another they need one another also. Criticism, if it is scriptural, is another way of exhorting one another to grow in our love relationship with God. The Word is good counsel. If someone criticizes you and the Bible says they're right, you should thank them.

It's worth noting that every denomination of Christianity began with a disagreement, or a response to a denial, of some key aspect of God's Word. Denominations represent a disunity that Jesus opposes. No one is separate in Christ (Romans 8:30), our goal is oneness with His mind and His spirit. May His Word always be your guide.

 Susan L. Prince posted at 10/25/2006 10:31:00 AM  
I was on a business trip recently. I spend the majority of the time on the trip with a colleague, and friend, and pray that God will use me as an instrument to "win her to the Lord". I've been committed to sharing what I know about the Lord with her at every opportunity, but use discernment as to not push her further away.

Over the years we have shared numerous conversations about religion and Christianity. The biggest stumbling block is her misperception of what Christianity is...and what it is supposed to be. I have tried to tell her that one can't look at Chrisitians, and people, to understand Christianity...that one has to look to Christ. People just keep screwing it up!

I try to live a life as pleasing to God as I can. I do fail, and sometimes I feel angry at fellow Christians who are "haters", as the world seems to term these things these days, because they undermine "my" work...thing is...in reality, winning souls is not "my" work. Can they really undermine God's plan? (That's another post)

I digress...what I meant to say is that people ARE listening and watching. My friend and colleague on a recent trip wanted to find a legal place to smoke in the airport where we were stranded for HOURS AND HOURS! (Ugh) As I (a non-smoker who HATES it) was reluctantly walking with her and attempting to persuade her (I won't be able to breathe, I'll smell..why did I bother showering...blah blah blah...) away from finding this sports bar where she could smoke, she threw my words back at me..."Sue, Christianity is all about sacrifice, at least that is what you told me."

It was God using a non-believer to snap me back into place.

I did share that with her one day...YEARS prior.

Now, it was my time to show it.

I sat in a smoky bar with my friend and colleague and enjoyed her company. Next time, I'll do it without all the complaining first.

 Jim Jordan posted at 10/25/2006 11:08:00 AM  
Hi Susan
I have been in a similar position and done the same thing with my smoking brother. When that happens I tell him about how Jesus can take away his desire to smoke and even the stress he claims leads him to smoke. When he complains that I sound like a preacher, I tell him "if I can put up with your smoking, you can put up with my preaching". :)

 susanlprince posted at 10/25/2006 08:31:00 PM  
LOL I like it! "If I can put up with your smoking, you can put up with my preaching!" LOL

That's good...mind if I use that?

 Jim Jordan posted at 10/26/2006 01:41:00 PM  
mind if I use that?
Not at all, Susan
Actually, I think I got that from someone else. Can't remember who. Take care.

 Lifewish posted at 10/30/2006 03:59:00 AM  
That said, you contradict yourself here - Dare I say it: Christians are the most hypocritical group of people living today. What Christians are you talking about? Cheryl? Maureen? Me? No, the Christians you are calling hypocritical [" play actors" from the Greek]are people who you stated in your first paragraph are not Christians at all!

One thing that's very noticeable from the atheist side of the fence is that it's extremely rare for Christians to call each other on errors of fact or morality. The Phelpses and Hovinds of this world appear to get treated as loopy elderly relatives, who are given the respect deemed due to a member of the family no matter how crazy they act.

And that is hypocritical. Many Christians carefully overlook behaviour from their fellow religious that they'd loudly decry in an atheist. If atheists were to come up with a notion as profoundly counterfactual as creationism, Christians would quite rightly rip them to shreds. If they were to say that a decent (in all senses of the word) portion of our society is evil by definition, and to protest at their funerals, Christians would quite rightly tear them a new one.

Some Christians do behave honestly on this front, and I'm privileged to know a few. But the vast majority of moderate Christians seem desperate to avoid any religious disagreement with their fellow man - if that man is also a Christian.

As an atheist who spends probably more time than is healthy arguing against some of the dafter religious notions, I'm sick of this. I know for a fact that there are significant numbers of Christians out there who agree with me on almost all points - so why am I left carrying the baton against scary extremism?

 Jim Jordan posted at 10/30/2006 11:54:00 AM  
Hi lifewish (you must be pro-life?)

Most of the criticism of the wacky wanna be Christians like Phelps comes from Christians. We recognize that folks like Phelps drive people away from Christ (Rom 2:24). Phelps deserves (and gets) nothing but contempt from other Christians. You are flat wrong.

a notion as profoundly counterfactual as creationism

So you say that there is no intelligent force that created anything? Is the presence of a creative agent really counteractual?

But the vast majority of moderate Christians seem desperate to avoid any religious disagreement with their fellow man - if that man is also a Christian./ so why am I left carrying the baton against scary extremism?

Manic depressive, are we? :)
All I can say is that you need to read more Christian blogs!

Take care.

 Lifewish posted at 10/30/2006 05:25:00 PM  
Hi lifewish (you must be pro-life?)

Actually not - I never even noticed that before... Also, hi :)

Most of the criticism of the wacky wanna be Christians like Phelps comes from Christians. We recognize that folks like Phelps drive people away from Christ (Rom 2:24). Phelps deserves (and gets) nothing but contempt from other Christians. You are flat wrong.

Could you point me to some examples? It's entirely possible that I'm wrong and that the outrage of Christians simply doesn't make it to the parts of the world that I inhabit.

I do have some doubts, though - Christians outnumber atheists about twenty to one in the US, so I'd have had to have completely overlooked hundreds if not thousands of Christian sites bashing Phelps et al for there to be any sort of parity. I can name maybe three or four such bloggers, but nowhere near that many.

I do try to read a diverse array of blogs, including several written by Christians. The memory that really sticks in my head is of a thoroughly nice bloke frantically making excuses for a really daft argument (the infamous argument from thermodynamics, in fact) that another Christian had made.

So you say that there is no intelligent force that created anything? Is the presence of a creative agent really counteractual?

I'd currently tend to describe it as afactual, although of course I'm always open to evidence.

However, the more specific notion that the world is 6000 years old, and that Noah's flood was a worldwide event, and that animals were specially created rather than being distant cousins, is in direct conflict with numerous predictive models of the world. That's pretty much as counterfactual as it's possible to get. Ever wondered why flood creationists don't go into the oil prospecting biz? This is why.

This is something of a sideline to my point, though, so possibly something to take elsewhere if you're interested in further discussion. I confess that I hadn't noticed the link to Hovind's blog in Amanda's sidebar when I made that comment; otherwise I'd have been somewhat more tactful.

Manic depressive, are we? :)

Generally very cheerful, just listened to one too many argument from thermodynamics :)

 Amanda posted at 10/30/2006 08:24:00 PM  
I confess that I hadn't noticed the link to Hovind's blog in Amanda's sidebar when I made that comment; otherwise I'd have been somewhat more tactful.

Oh, oops! I'd forgotten that link was over there. I used to be a Hovind supporter, but not so much anymore. I am, however, still a YEC. But that doesn't mean that I can't have rational conversation about the topic of evolution.

Don't worry so much about tact...I don't mind anyone stating their opinions here...as long as they don't get into flame wars.

 Jim Jordan posted at 10/30/2006 11:05:00 PM  
Hi lifewish
I enjoyed your response. Very refreshing.

Regarding Phelps - could Christians be more vehemently opposed to him? Sure. If he came any where near me (South Florida) I'd be out there protesting his nonsense and I'd invite a lot of gay amigos to join me.

the more specific notion that the world is 6000 years old

That's a misinterpretation of Scripture. I've written on that here and posted an alternative interpretation here.

and that Noah's flood was a worldwide event

Again, a misinterpretation in this case of the context of the word "world". This is merely a semantic confusion. If the Mayas and the Chinese et al were mentioned somewhere in the preceding text, then maybe "world" would have meant a "worldwide event".

and that animals were specially created rather than being distant cousins

I have a mixed bag in response to this one. You might want to study the "Cambrian Explosion" in which all the phylla of large animals appear in a short period of time in the fossil record. Also, new studies of specific genomes are showing a much greater diversity between humans and other previously assumed "cousins" such as chimpanzees. With the enormous amount of information found in the human genome, a 6% variation is now much greater than it was thought to be before.

There's a lot more to learn than the evolutionists lead on about. Their idea that they have it all figured out [a la Dawkins] reminds me more of the claims of the young earth creationists. One of my favorite Wittgenstein quotes, "what we do not know we must pass over in silence." Good advice for those bloviating about things they cannot verify.

Take care

 Lifewish posted at 10/31/2006 04:51:00 AM  
Hi Jim,

On the moral front I consider myself thoroughly corrected, and very glad of it :)

On the creationism front, got no major issues with the first two points (although I'm intrigued by the idea of using the scientific method on the Bible - what testable predictions does it make?). But the biological bit is kinda crying out for rebuttal.

As I said before, I'm really not keen to start discussing this on Amanda's blog, because the debate will almost certainly add yards to the thread length and probably won't do much for the regulars here. It'd also get in the way of discussion of the original topic.

If you're interested in talking about this further, I've stuck a post on my blog covering your points, which anyone who's interested should feel free to respond to. This way we get the debate without making a mess of Amanda's carpet :) Unless Amanda is particularly keen to discuss this stuff.

I should note that, in a twisted sort of way, all this is making my original point for me. I know for a fact that there are large numbers of Christians out there who accept evolution - there's surveys to prove it. So why is it that, in discussions of evolution, my side is always 90% atheist/agnostic?

Are said Christians just uncomfortable arguing with people who are otherwise on the "same side" as them? Do they have some residual guilt over not interpreting the Bible literally? Do they just have better things to do with their time? Thoughts appreciated.

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